Last week I began a little project based on the frequently asked question: “Can women and men be ‘just’ friends?” For the purposes of my (and hopefully your) entertainment and interest, I’ll be publishing transcripts from some of the interviews I conduct over the next week or two.
Tom
The second interview I did for this series was with my friend Tom. I’ve known Tom for about 15 years or so. We went to high school together. I had a really big crush on him for a few months after he played Sky Masterson in our school’s production of Guys and Dolls. Basically the way to my heart is through musical theatre and/or hip-hop karaoke.
Tom is 33 years old, heterosexual and married. We’re pretty close and have shared a lot with each other over the years. Often I share things with Tom that he would rather I kept to myself. We have a lot of mutual friends from high school and so we’ve all been hanging out together for years. Tom and I talk online most days, play online scrabble, and then sometimes we go to the beach together and eat chips and drink wine. I talked with him about our friendship and, more generally how he felt about his platonic relationships with women in his life.
Meghan: Are we friends?
Tom: Yes, of course
M: How did our friendship develop?
T: The way normal friendships do…Through friends, by partying together.
M: Why are we still friends? On what basis has our friendship persisted?
T: A few factors. Some of the least romantic ones are: we’re used to each other, as one gets older it becomes more difficult to form new friendships, we have many mutual friends, we became friends at a young age… Those kinds of things.
But some of the better answers are: we share the same sense of humor (that’s a big one), we know how to forgive each other when we do something lame, we enjoy doing the same things, etc.
M: Ok. And how does our friendship differ from your friendships with dudes. Are there things we talk about about that you don’t talk about with male friends and vice versa?
T: Well… Yes, our friendship is different from those I have with my male friends, but only in terms of conversation subject matter. The way I FEEL about our friendship is the same. And even then, regarding the subject matter, the differences are very trivial — i.e tone, inflection, delivery, joke style.
M: For example?
T: Well… That’s a tough one because it changes from person to person, so maybe gender isn’t even the issue. I’m friends with my wife but I would not make certain jokes around her that I would feel comfortable making around you.
M: Ok so like what? What’s the difference between how you talk with men/other friends and how you talk with me?
T: Ok, well there is more “bravado” (I hate that I used that word) when guys talk. We tend to discuss successes more than failures. Conversations with you can be more self-deprecating than if I were having a conversation with Mike, for example.
M: Interesting!
T: But that’s only because I’m not trying to bang you. So it’s really hard to answer. It might be different if we were single and friends… But I’m sure that is a question that’s coming up so I’ll wait.
M: Which brings me to my next question. Do you hang out with me because you secretly or not so secretly want to do me?
T: Haha. No, in all seriousness no. BUT that answer has layers to it.
M: In what way? What are the layers?
T: I’ll speak more generally. I can’t speak for all men, but for me I have always had a lot of female friends and I’ve hooked up with many of them, and that’s great, and I’m still friends with many of them. It’s not the REASON I’m friends with girls, but it’s always an option. When I was single, I felt perfectly comfortable having sex with a friend. I didn’t expect it or think I deserved it or anything… It was just a nice bonus.
That’s another thing on the question about differences between guy and girl friendships — sex is not an option with my guy friends. But that doesn’t make my female friendships more appealing. I’m not friends with girls because of the possibility of sex.
That said, I suppose I haven’t always had these views. It took me being very immature about relationships in terms of the way I reacted to friendships and sex for me to get to the point that I’m at now. I have ruined or have come close to ruining what could have been or turned out to be very meaningful friendships by pretending that I wasn’t interested in someone sexually.
I’m glad I got all that drama out of my system by the time I was in my mid-twenties, because it opened the door for a lot of really fun, drama-free sex.
M: Do you think sex changed any of those friendships? Or do you think sex could potentially change a friendship? If you want to make out with a friend does that change the friendship? The wanting to?
T: Well there’s a difference between wanting to do and would actually do. Wanting is different… If you WANT your friend, then it’s not really a friendship and it’s more a secret desire, which has a whole host of nastier complications and results. But yes, having sex/hooking up with a friend can change a friendship, it just hasn’t done so for me personally.
M: Ok so if you literally wanted to have sex with a friend it wouldn’t ‘really’ be a friendship?
T: No, it would be a secret sex project.
M: Haha.
T: You can’t base a real friendship on that. That’s why I think the ‘friend zone’ thing is bullshit.
M: Why is the ‘friend zone’ bullshit?
T: If you want to have sex with a girl, you court her like a normal person. If she’s not down and you think you can handle it, by all means be friends. But if you can’t handle it, move on.
M: Right
T: Don’t pine for her love by being nice and hoping that she’ll realize you’re attractive after all… That’s a fantasy and it has never ever worked. “Be a man” — i.e. be a thoughtful, normal person.
M: So do you secretly or not so secretly want to do/make out with all or most of your female friends?
T: Again, there’s that “want” word. I WOULD make out with the female friends that I find attractive, yes. But I’m not actively pursuing that (that I’m married is not the only reason, haha). And that depends on a few factors too. I would not make out with a female friend if I thought she couldn’t be mature about it or if I thought it would ruin the friendship. But it never has for me.
…I mean, you and me made out a few times and we’re fine.
M: Indeed.
So it’s more about being mature about the whole thing?
T: It’s more about appreciating sex/play for just being fun and wanting to do it with someone you like.
M: Right. So does my vagina get in the way of our friendship?
T: Not at all. Your boobs on the other hand…
M: Do my boobs get in the way of our friendship?
T: No, haha. No not at all. If I was in love or in lust with you though, then that would get in the way, but we wouldn’t have a friendship if that was the case.
M: I see
T: Unless you loved me back, in which case we would have a romantic relationship, which is very different too.
M: Then we would be in love. Not ‘just’ friends.
T: Yes.
M: So you’re saying we’re not in love.
T: I do love you Meghan, but not like that.
M: Thanks Tom. I love you too.
Ok last question. Can we be attracted to a person and still be a friend? Does that necessarily interrupt the friendship?
T: Yes, I have no issue being friends with someone I’m attracted to. I’m attracted to most of my female friends — so it goes back to the sex question – Yes, I’m attracted. No I’m not pursuing. If you want to have sex, let’s do it. But I’m not going to lose my mind if you don’t want to fuck me. I don’t assume I’m attractive to everyone and I’m not going to take that personally. It’s those people that need to be wanted that can’t maintain co-ed relationships.
M: Right. Because then it makes everything about sex/sexual?
T: Yes! For me, in a truly healthy, mature friendship, sex is an option, but not expected or necessarily sought after. It’s just a nice bonus if it happens.
M: But it’s not the point. Or the number one priority?
T: Yes.
M: The number one priority is the friendship?
T: Yes, absolutely.
M: Thanks Tom! Is there anything else you’d like to add?
T: Nope. Did I sound like a douchebag?
M: No you sounded awesome.
September 10, 2012 at 12:38 pm
I think this series might put off a lot of the radical feminist readership.
I think it’s the dudes.
September 10, 2012 at 12:40 pm
You’re probably right. I’m interviewing women too though!
September 10, 2012 at 4:37 pm
I have and always have had close female friends, but I’ve discovered as I’m getting older and more feminist that I have more “in common” with men. Currently, my closest friends, the ones I talk to the most and hang out with, are men.
I’ve noticed Meghan has said this, as well as Nine Deuce over on Rage Against the Man-chine.
Not sure what to make of it…
It’s not just the having children and disappearing into motherhood either, I have single women friends.
September 10, 2012 at 4:42 pm
I’m not sure what to make of it either, to be honest…I wouldn’t say I had more male friends than women friends but I seem to socialize/go out with more men than women…I feel a little strange saying that publicly to be honest but it is true. For me it does seem to be about ‘settling down’ – though I don’t feel comfortable making any generalizations around why women might stop going out/socializing as much (maybe it’s just that some of them stop socializing as much with single friends?) once they ‘settle down’ whereas men seem to do this a little less? I really don’t know…Again, don’t want to make any sweeping generalizations around this…
September 10, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Kind of quashes that whole – very popular if ridiculous – “feminists are man-haters” thing.
September 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Yes. And you would not believe the enormous number of comments I get here telling me I hate men. It’s quite amusing. I mean, if women hate men that’s fine with me. I’m sure they have their reasons. But I don’t. Not individual men anyway. That said, I do think I have some particularly good-quality men in my life nowadays….
September 10, 2012 at 5:23 pm
The only thing that made me go, “hmm” when reading through the interview, is the making out part. I’ve made out with past male friends, but that’s just it, they’re *past* male friends now because the friendship no longer felt like a friendship. To me, there’s something about making out that changes the relationship from strictly platonic (a friendship) to like, “friends with benefits.” The guy friends that i’ve known since i was a little girl,, who i am still friends with, wouldn’t even consider making out with me…. they’re like my brothers, and by this i mean 100% platonic. It is kind of like how I feel about my female friends. They would even probably be like, “WTF” if i ever mentioned that. I guess I just see a difference between being friends and being friends “with benefits” which is different, IMO. Also, I mean, i have lesbian friends who would never think of making out with me, just as my close male friends wouldn’t simply “because we’re friends” — so i guess I was just slightly confused by that part only because the title was about men and women being JUST friends. Like, platonic. I suppose it is different for everyone, some people see sexual intercourse as being the *line* that is crossed when it’s no longer *just* a friendship…some people are more affectionate physically with their platonic pals than others, too.
I could also be misreading or misinterpreting what your friend said. Personally, it’s only been *newer* male friends, not life-long male friends, who’ve commented on my appearance and tried to make our relationship physically affectionate.
September 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Well I don’t know…In this particular situation, it was a pretty long time ago that we ‘made out a few times’ and it just doesn’t seem to have had any impact on our friendship…The other question is – can we be friends with someone we once made out with/slept with/were attracted to? I tend to think yes. The problem with the framing of the question is that it sets limits in terms of what ‘friendship’ means. I mean, if it were a ‘new’ friend and we were making out, I definitely wouldn’t consider that person ‘just’ a friend. I’ve known Tom for years and the making out is so far in the past…Our friendship was never based on anything sexual and was always primarily about a friendship. I do think that it can all be a little messy though, you’re right. For me the problem would be if, you know, I was clear that I didn’t want to make out/date/have sex/whatever but the other person couldn’t keep it just platonic or kept pushing it. I would find that offensive and irritating for obvious reasons. I really don’t have any answers at this point though…I’m going to see where these interviews take me!
September 10, 2012 at 6:09 pm
That makes sense, too. It is hard to decide what friendship is, I don’t think anyone would ever agree on a definition as it probably means something different to different people. The issue i’ve had with male friends i’ve met more recently is just blatant spurs of misogyny and well, as your friend Tom said, “bravado” — I’d call them out but it wouldn’t change anything, and as “their friend” i was privy to listening to it a lot. I actually used to predominately hang out with boys growing up, it is only recently that i have acquired more than one or two good female friends. I don’t have very many close friends that are male now, other than my partner and an older male professor who is into radical feminism. I couldn’t take the masculinity bullshit and the dude-bro’ing that would sometimes creep into hanging out (or i should say, partying) with some old guy friends. Maybe now that i’m not into partying, i have less dude friends. That tended to be how I met the majority of them, haha, so i think the two went together!
September 10, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Yes well, it does seem that ‘partying’ goes hand-in-hand with hanging out with dudes…I wonder why that is?
September 10, 2012 at 6:28 pm
I don’t know, but I know a lot of dudes try to “pick up” women at bars.
September 11, 2012 at 12:39 am
This is interesting. I think it has a lot to do with the situation and phase of life you’re in. When you’re young and horny, just started college or whatever, and your life is, if not all, at least a lot about romance, sex, lust, desire.. it might be very difficult to just be friends with someone you also find (somewhat) attractive. Whereas when you’re in a committed relationship, or focused on work and not looking for company in that sense, then it’s simpler. Even those moments when you do lust after your friend, are easier to see for what they are, momentary crushes or whatever, that do not have to affect the friendship (or have the sex and get over it if both feel the same way). As you talked about it, it’s a lot about being mature about all your relationships.
September 11, 2012 at 12:47 am
And also, being feminist or not affects the situation too I think. I mean, if you have really strict notions about what being men and women mean, if you think men are from Mars and so on.. sure it’ll be hard to be just friends with the opposite sex.
Because friendship is surely more about connecting as humans, than bonding as males or females. (Although that element can be there too..)
Maybe you could ask your interviewees if they think their feminist (or not) outlook affects their friendships?
September 13, 2012 at 1:04 am
I wonder if some feminists finding as they mature that they acquire more male friends has something to do with the other women in their lives being threatened by their feminism?
IOW, that in making the choices that many/most women make to get married, raise children, etc., some of them find remaining either committed to feminism OR committed to feminist friends threatens that stability.
And this is NOT to say that many women get married/children, etc. and grow in their feminism or maybe even find it through those relationships.
I have several married friends who tell me they “used” to be feminists.
I’m just responding to your thoughts about having more male friends than female at a certain point.