I could hardly believe my eyes when this was brought to my attention this morning. 
Slutwalk DC is holding an upcoming fundraiser at a ‘Gentlemen’s Club’. Sounds classy, right? I’m thinking suits, briefcases, scotch…Just a good old fashioned place for ‘gentlemen’ to go and feel like they can purchase women’s bodies. Hey, everybody needs to relax, right?
Experiencing and anticipating some push back, I assume, led the DC satellite to produce a statement defending their decision. Said statement, from my perspective, has only made things worse, as, in defensiveness, the author makes sweeping and untrue assumptions about a) feminism b) why a woman might feel ‘uncomfortable’ attending a fundraiser at a strip club and c) the actual reasons why women or feminists might object to this (hint: it’s not just because we’re prudes).
Admittedly, the statement is hard to get through, the writing and rationale is a little confusing, likely the response was written in haste (hey, I’ve been there), and trying to get to the ‘meat’ of their position is a little like wading through a swamp to get to an Olive Garden (i.e. not sure if it was worth it).
I’m beginning to feel a little like a broken record here, but seeing as this argument is being continually misrepresented and confused throughout these discussions (as well as, generally, in discussions around feminist perspectives on sex work), I would like to address said argument. When feminists build critiques of the sex industry (stripping, porn, prostitution, etc), it is not about ‘judging’ the women who work in the industry. In fact, feminists know, all too well, why a woman might ‘choose‘/need to find work of this nature. Namely because, hey guess what! People need to eat. And pay rent. And wear shoes and have heat and things like that.
Slutwalk DC states, right off the bat, that:
This is a non-judgmental movement that embraces all choices a woman wishes to make, while making a statement that her choices do NOT invite sexual violence. As any women’s activist should know, women who work in adult entertainment and more specifically, erotic dancers, are very often the victims of sexual assault. These women are very often to victims of Slut Shaming and Victim Blaming due to their profession.
This statement, to me, immediately implies that there are factions of the feminist movement (though, whether SlutwalkDC aligns themselves with the feminist movement is, at least, unclear and, at most, doubtful) which are ‘judgmental’.
The author goes on to say:
While I recognize that many people may hold a certain belief that these industries objectify and over-sexualize women, the problem should be with the system, and not with the women that engage in these profession.
And to that, I say ‘yes!’ But also, ‘wait, I feel confused’. Many ‘people’ (let’s assume we’re talking about feminists here…) do indeed believe that these industries objectify and exploit women. Said ‘people’ also believe that this is a problem with ‘the system’ (and hey, while we’re at it, let’s name that system ‘patriarchy’ and ‘capitalism’, two systems that word very well together in order to exploit and marginalize a large number of people in various ways). The ‘problem’ the author refers to, has little to do with the individual women who engage in these professions, aside from the fact that these women are, indeed, individual human beings and not objects…
On to problematic statement number two:
Feminism has taken a hard hit by the constant exclusivity of “feminists” which is clear in the statistic quoted by Kirsten Powers that “a 2008 Daily Beast poll found that just 20 percent of women call themselves “feminists,” and only 17 percent would want their daughters to use the label.”
Ring the ‘not true’ bell because we need some wake up calls. Feminism ‘has taken a hard hit’ because of the backlash. Because some, namely those who want to maintain power and privilege, as well as those who feel that they depend on dominant ideology for their survival and are afraid for what might happen were we to uproot it (perfectly reasonable, it’s a powerful system, can be very convincing, and is kind of a big bully), have worked very hard at painting feminism with the ‘prudish, man-hating, sex-hating, destroyers of all things fun and awesome’ brush. This ‘exclusivity’ the author speaks of is unclear. I’m not sure if they are referring to feminists’ excluding sexist men, sexism, or strip clubs from their un-fun parties or, if perhaps, they are referring to the 1st or 2nd wave of feminism, which did, indeed, exclude lower class women and women of colour from the movement. Either way, feminism, seems to me, to be an entirely different beast today as it works to address intersectionality and the ways in which various women experience various forms of oppression in various ways as a result of living in a racist, classist, sexist society. Feminism isn’t perfect, but arguing that feminists are exclusive and judgmental, without looking at, or acknowledging the mass attacks on feminism via the media and culture at large as ONE BIG REASON why people may not want to identify as feminist leaves a pretty big hole in your argument and paints an inaccurate picture of the situation.
And then we come to this:
The feminist movement has been lost in an ongoing civil war – women arguing with other women. For all of you that are outraged with the push back from fellow “feminists” regarding SlutWalks, I hope you understand that just as they disagree with our tactics and ideals, you are welcome to disagree with some other women’s choices, but do not abandon them for them. Feminism is supposed to be able equality, non judgement, and fairness. Feminists are supposed to stand up for their fellow woman and not disavow her for lifestyle choices that Feminists worked so hard to allow her to make. I have a hard time recognizing the idea that “Women should be able to do whatever they want! Just don’t make us look bad.”
*Big sigh*. Since, according to the author, ‘the feminist movement has been lost’, I guess we should all just turn around and go home. Remind me, again, why we are having all these conversations? OH RIGHT. BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP TELLING LIES ABOUT FEMINISM. Oh, and also? Because women are being raped and assaulted and abused and then blamed. A pretty big problem for feminists. Dear author: What are, exactly, your ‘tactics and ideals’? To attack feminism and feminists, tell them what feminism and feminists are, in fact, SUPPOSED TO BE DOING, and then completely misunderstand and misrepresent just about everything feminists have argued over the past 50 years? This is not about ‘judging’ individual women. This (in this one circumstance) is about the fact that a bunch of dudes, paying money to objectify women, and that the women who are being objectified need to do this in order to make a living, makes women into sexual objects which exist for male pleasure and can be bought and sold. Like things. Not people. Feminists believe that, viewing women as actual whole human beings, IS ‘stand[ing] up for their fellow woman’.
And finally we get to ‘research’. Or lack there of.
Maybe some of you have not done your research, but one of the organizers of SlutWalk Toronto is an exotic model and burlesque dancer herself. Who are we to tell her that what she is doing is wrong? If it wasn’t for these women, we wouldn’t be marching on August 13th.
Well, ‘maybe some of you have not done your research’ (I would argue that, it is very clear who has ‘not done their research’ in this scenario), but no one cares whether or not one of the organizers of Slutwalk Toronto is an exotic model and burlesque dancer. No one has said she is doing something ‘wrong’. I mean, we could get into the larger context of said ‘choice’, but that’s not what we’re talking about right now. BUT WAIT. WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? I’ve gotten so lost throughout this response, the made up arguments based on things that no one believes or ever said, that I can’t even remember what it is we are talking about. OH RIGHT. SlutwalkDC is having a fundraiser at a strip club. And the author of this response thinks this makes some people ‘uncomfortable’. Well paint me pissed off, because that kind of condescending, disrespectful, insulting, simplification will not go unnoticed. ‘Umcomfortable’ sounds pretty simple, like wearing too small tights or watching someone pick their nose on the bus. In this context, ‘uncomfortable’ means prudish. It means uptight, judgmental, man-hating, sex-hating, no-fun feminists. Not wanting to hang out in a strip club would make me feel ‘uncomfortable’, but to completely ignore and erase all the very valid and desperately important reasons why this might make me feel ‘uncomfortable’, makes me feel *EEKNODONTSAYIT* mad.
An image from Slutwalk DC's website. The message here being....er...women aren't objects??
May 14, 2011 at 12:23 am
Thank you Meghan again for your comments on this issue. So important to highlight and challenge the lack of clarity and direction (which seems to be getting worse) in the Slutwalk campaigns. And of course, the anti-feminist rhetoric.
Sick of being labelled a ‘prude’ and accused of judging women with regards to this issue. The radical feminist voice is being silenced with great effect in this debate, by using the lazy and ignorant charge of ‘anti-sex’. So important that there are folk like you to challenge this.
The classic feminist phrase that has been in my mind all through this debate:
“I’ll be a post-feminist in a post-patriarchy”.
May 14, 2011 at 12:27 am
I can’t believe this, I really can’t.
It’s as if all of a sudden the only people who have ever had problems with women pole dancing are *gasp!* feminists. I suppose the Catholic Church throughout the centuries doesn’t count much. No, it’s “feminists” who have turned a “choice”, a respectable “choice” into a moral “wrong”. WTF?
And, of course, who stands FOR women to pole dance in peace? MEN who profit from the women pole dancing. Honestly, you couldn’t make it up. If the miners turned up at the union scraming “who you calling working class”, we would be laughing, but this is exactly the same thing.
Let’s call a spade a spade. No one in the whole world supports “a woman’s choice to do what she chooses”. What IS supported is a woman’s choice to do what the status quo wants her to do. Before, it was staying at home and having children. Now there’s a multi billion dollar industry worldwide profiting from women’s sexuality and hey, that is what women are required to do. I can come up with about a million “choices” that women aren’t allowed to make. Like marrying another woman, or demanding maternity leave.
All this “defending” a woman’s choice against an imaginary attack that seems to come exclusively from “no-fun feminists” is seriously chapping my entire hide.
May 14, 2011 at 12:32 am
I forgot to add:
F*ck “choice”. Taking your clothes off is becoming a bloody imposition! It is not only “ok”, but expected of all women at all times. “Right to choose” my arse. /rant over
August 21, 2011 at 6:29 am
I completely agree with you.
May 14, 2011 at 3:53 am
Hello Meghan Murphy.
You are critiquing a woman, Samantha Wright, and not a satellite SlutWalk, DC. Specifically, you are accusing a hard working unpaid activist of being ‘condescending, disrespectful, [and] insulting’ in the defense of an event she organized. Which is fine. That is a healthy discussion to have (or at least it could be) and I am not comfortable with having an event at a strip club anyway.
But that isn’t the discussion we are having.
My issue with this discussion is that the woman who so offended you strongly identifies as a feminist, and, for some reason, you refuse to accept that. You simply deny her feminism.
I am not defending the event at a strip club, but I am here to defend is the SlutWalk movement, and the feminists involved in it. The biggest problem I have with this discussion is the assumption that SlutWalk organizers are not feminists, or are somehow anti-feminists, or trying to hide feminism, or something.
As a starting point, read the founders’ bios (http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/who). There is no attempt to hide from the word feminist. It is highlighted. Talk to any of us. We are feminists, this is a feminist movement, and this is a feminist debate.
> This statement, to me, immediately implies that there are factions of the feminist movement (though, whether SlutwalkDC aligns themselves with the feminist movement is, at least, unclear and, at most, doubtful) which are ‘judgmental’.
Maybe our feminism sucks. Maybe we are the wrong kind of feminists. Can you understand why Samantha, who is volunteering for this because she hopes to end slut shaming and victim blaming, might feel judged by some feminists?
May 14, 2011 at 5:19 am
Hi Ted,
I am actually critiquing a response. I think I made that clear in the title of the post and within the post. I did not include the name of the author (is Samantha the author? If so, thanks for clarifying) because it was not on the post. I am not critiquing the satellite DC, you are correct. Just some of the actions, I suppose, of the satellite DC. But mostly just the response. I am sure this ‘Samantha Wright’ is very hard working. I would not argue otherwise as I do not know who that is. Nor is that up for discussion. Since I have no idea who you are talking about, or whether or not she identifies as feminist, I don’t see how I could possibly ‘refuse to accept that she strongly identifies as feminist’. Defend Slutwalk all you wish. Nowhere do I argue that some of the women involved are not feminist. In fact, I know, personally, several feminists who are involved in Slutwalk Vancouver. I would never argue that they were ‘anti-feminist’ or that they could not identify as feminist. These women I know are very much feminists. I do argue that much of the discourse surrounding and coming from, particularly Slutwalk TO and DC (as well as elsewhere) attacks and marginalizes many (mostly radical) feminist arguments. I don’t understand why ‘Samantha’ feels judged. I hear that she feels defensive. But the arguments she makes around her feeling defensive are simply untrue and inaccurate. That is what I am responding to.
May 14, 2011 at 6:28 pm
I think Meghan demonstrated pretty clearly in the previous post that there is not a consensus, even among the organizers, that this movement is feminist. And this defense of holding a fundraiser at a strip club kind of puts the cherry on top of the anti-feminist sundae.
May 14, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Hello-
I appreciate that everyone has felt compelled to get active in response to or in support of SlutWalks across the world. It’s an amazing thing to watch what an impact this movement is having on the world and how many new activists are coming out of the woodwork for a cause that resonates with them. The only thing I have been disappointed with, not only in DC, but around SlutWalks in general – is the condescending response from fellow feminists who disagree with our methodology (for example; incorporating the term ‘slut’ in a movement for empowerment).
I can understand why people may disagree with SlutWalks as a whole and/or the fundraiser I have organized. What I do not understand is why in disagreement, some women are so quick to throw their fellow woman under the bus for trying to do good. Just because certain actions or thoughts of some don’t fit into a neat list of Feminist beliefs that you or I believe in, does not mean that we need to speak out against each other. Expressing a differing opinion is one thing, to completely abjure another Feminist based off of one clashing idea is another. Just as I have repeated over and over again on our social media sites – I welcome the debate. Our mission is to create dialogue and I believe that goal has without a doubt been met. But what I do not support is personally attacking another person for expressing an opinion that is different than mine.
I would like to make clear that SlutWalks, while they may be feminist in nature, are not about advancing ALL feminist ideals. SlutWalk D.C. and all SlutWalks have a very clear message of allowing a woman to make her own life choices (clothing, work, behavior) without thinking she should expect sexual violence for her choices. This does not mean that we as the organizers of SlutWalks, must also now work for equal pay, Title IX, prohibition, or any other ideal that was or was once held by Feminists. Furthermore, Feminist Theory has morphed and changed with time – leading to many different Feminist perspectives, which has blurred the line of what Pro-Women/Pro-Equality thought is Feminist or Anti-Feminist. If there wasn’t a question over Feminist ideology, we wouldn’t be having this debate in the first place.
I hope that everyone continues to discuss and I hopefully we can all agree to disagree. At the very least, let’s all recognize that even with our differences, we all have an important and valid role in the fight for equality.
May 14, 2011 at 8:46 pm
Thanks for your comments, Samantha. I, as well, have felt ‘disappointed with…the condescending response from fellow feminists’ within the discourse around Slutwalk. I felt your post was extremely condescending and misleading. It was not at all an accurate interpretation of feminist arguments and simply worked to reinforce untrue stereotypes about radical feminist arguments, and further marginalize said arguments. To argue that women, simply, feel ‘uncomfortable’ with attending a fundraiser in a strip club works to make women feel as though there is something wrong with them for not wanting to do this. Like, I’m a prude, or I’m not liberated, or I’m uncomfortable with my sexuality or something. It’s totally disrespectful and erases the very real reasons a woman may not want to be in a space like that. I spent a great deal of my life trying to force myself to enjoy ‘being one of the guys’, going to strip clubs or burlesque shows or whatever, all the while feeling like there was something wrong with me for feeling horrible and degraded and sick to my stomach. After working very hard to be able to articulate exactly WHY strip clubs are a space where women may feel disempowered, and objectified, and inhuman, and at risk, and unwelcome (unless of course they are naked, in which case they are very welcome), to hear yet another person (and someone who identifies as feminist, at that) completely erase all of the context around strip clubs and the ways in which objectification hurts women, is completely upsetting and maddening. Talk about throwing your ‘fellow woman under the bus’! You threw us all under the bus with that post. You claimed we were all simply judgmental. That we were not looking at the ‘root’ of the problem (which is, in fact, exactly what we are doing), and that, if we ‘feel uncomfortable’ we should just stay home….So who has been ‘abandoned’ in this scenario? This is not, in any way, about ‘Feminists…disavow[ing]‘ anyone’s ‘lifestyle choices that Feminists worked so hard to allow her to make.’ Working in the sex industry is much more than simply ‘a lifestyle choice’. In saying that you erase just about every feminist argument ever made around choice, patriarchy, context, the male gaze, capitalism, objectifcation, etc. And what feminists ‘worked so hard to allow her to make that choice’??? Strip clubs are for men. To go and look at women. If men didn’t want them, they wouldn’t exist. Men worked hard in order to be free to purchase and objectify women’s bodies. Not feminists.
May 14, 2011 at 9:48 pm
That’s the only thing you’ve been disappointed in? The shaming of feminists, feminism, and of lesbians in the name of SlutWalk didn’t disappoint you? Hosting a fundraiser against victim blaming at a strip club – a place where men are very likely to be calling women sluts, the same men who would blame a woman for being raped because she was a stripper – doesn’t seem a little inappropriate to you?
May 17, 2011 at 8:23 am
“I would like to make clear that SlutWalks, while they may be feminist in nature, are not about advancing ALL feminist ideals. SlutWalk D.C. and all SlutWalks have a very clear message of allowing a woman to make her own life choices (clothing, work, behavior) without thinking she should expect sexual violence for her choices. This does not mean that we as the organizers of SlutWalks, must also now work for equal pay, Title IX, prohibition, or any other ideal that was or was once held by Feminists. Furthermore, Feminist Theory has morphed and changed with time – leading to many different Feminist perspectives, which has blurred the line of what Pro-Women/Pro-Equality thought is Feminist or Anti-Feminist. If there wasn’t a question over Feminist ideology, we wouldn’t be having this debate in the first place.”
Wow, this whole paragraph smacks of SOOO Much privilege it makes me want to BARF.
June 13, 2011 at 1:36 am
“The biggest problem I have with this discussion is the assumption that SlutWalk organizers are not feminists, or are somehow anti-feminists, or trying to hide feminism, or something.”
Not all of them are feminists, at least not the ones from Toronto.
“I retreated from the word over the years, due to its reputation of ‘man-hating, hairy-legged, birkenstock-wearing’ descriptions that appeared around the term. I certainly didn’t fit that bill.
Over the years, I had pretty much all but forgotten the term. Maybe it was just that I decided to become interested in concerns that never used it. But despite me being a strong-willed woman, who loves all things related to sexual confidence and sexuality in general, it was rare that I came across the word ‘feminist’.
I would label myself a ‘slut’ before a ‘feminist’ {funny, since I avoided the latter due to what I considered the bad reputation it had}.”
From:
http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/being-a-slut-and-getting-pissed-off
May 14, 2011 at 11:05 am
Thanks for these amazing posts on SlutWalk Meghan. I heard the event is coming to my country too, and started googling to find out more than the brief news stories I had glimpsed on mainstream media, as the idea of the SlutWalk somewhat perplexed me..
Among all the talk around it, it was great to find your posts! I understand now so much more of my “feeling uncomfortable”..
Also, it is always infuriating to get called a judgemental prude just for questioning certain ideas and raising certain feminist critiques, which have never put the blame on individual women’s choices! (Rather, the whole idea of many of those critiques is to look at wider social power structures..)
Ted, can we not discuss ideas and arguments?
May 15, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Indeed. And often, it would seem, many of those who go around calling individual women ‘judgmental prudes’ are the very ones who seem to erase feminist arguments around structural exploitation and oppression with ‘you’re all just jealous/uptight/angry, etc’, interestingly, demanding that we look at the ‘root’ rather than the individual. Blaming individual women for simply ‘feeling uncomfortable’ does exactly what these critics pretend to want feminists to do! i.e. include context in the conversation, look at systems of power rather than make everything about some kind of individual inadequacy. This is, of course, exactly what (most, though not all, clearly) feminists are already doing – making certain that context is included in the discussion, challenging neo-liberal discourse that erases systematic oppression, etc. Frustrating!
May 14, 2011 at 11:44 am
Thanks for confronting – I am losing energy for I have to live with extreme PTSD after the “choices” I made to “work” as a “Slut”. Sorry, I so ill my sarcasm raises to the surface. But when they just look at the small moment, when the women inside the club is performing being happy, performing the strong woman – they do not look at her full life or the environment they work or the society that refuses to see she may be trapped.
When women class it as choice, they are keeping the prostituted oppressed. I am sick and tired of that chorus.
May 14, 2011 at 12:11 pm
I feel odd pointing out that you are insulting Samantha and saying that she isn’t a feminist, because you say it all so clearly.
This post, aside from insulting Samantha’s writing skills and style for no reason, includes the phrase “whether SlutwalkDC aligns themselves with the feminist movement is, at least, unclear and, at most, doubtful” and that theme is repeated throughout this post and the last one.
This is the second post in a row where you say that we aren’t feminists or are trying not to talk about feminism. The title of your last post (about us) is: “We’re sluts not feminists.”
If you listen, what you will hear is “We are feminists and don’t rape her. Even if you think she is a slut” But you won’t listen.
Meghan, we are feminists, just maybe not the kind you like. And I am not alone in thinking this. From Ruth(less)’s comments of your last post:
> I think as feminists we can disagree, in fact I encourage it.. however I never think its cool to bash other feminists (or anyone) just because we do not agree. Our message gets lost with that…
Maybe Ruth, Samantha, and I are misreading you, but I don’t know how. It seems pretty clear you are attacking us, not just our positions. You denied our request for an actual conversation and you make fun of Samantha’s writing style and skill for no good reason, other than perhaps to feel superior.
This is not the dialogue or debate that will lead to anything other than arguing and defensiveness. Which is a shame, because this is an important conversation.
May 14, 2011 at 7:24 pm
I denied your request for conversation?? What request? You wrote and asked if I wished to speak with anyone at Slutwalk Toronto or DC and I responded and said: “I’m talking with Heather tomorrow and have spoken with several organizers in Vancouver. Thanks for checking in.” Was this a ‘request’? And, if so, how did I ‘deny’ said ‘request’. If you would like to chat, I am happy to. And,hey! Looks like we are doing it right now. Perhaps, in the future, you might be more clear about what is it that you are ‘requesting’ or even specify that you are actually requesting something? So that I don’t inadvertently turn you down? Deal?
Great.
In other news, where exactly do I say that this ‘Samantha’ is not a feminist? Are you assuming, by implication, because she attacks feminism and completely misunderstands and misrepresents feminist arguments that I think she isn’t feminist? I’m not sure. In any case, hows about we just stick to what I actually said in the post. And I don’t believe that I say, anywhere, that anyone named Samantha is not a feminist. Please do correct me if I am mistaken.
Regarding her writing style, as I pointed out to Kate, I do indeed think it is perfectly reasonable to critique someone’s writing if their writing style makes their argument unclear. People do it to me all the time. And then I try to make sure that next time I write something, I am more clear. So that people understand what I’m talking about. I do believe, strongly, that when writing, one should try to convey a point in a way that makes sense. Bad writing doesn’t help your cause or your reader.
The title of my last post ‘We’re Sluts, Not Feminists’ was in reference to Sonya Barnett’s post which I discuss in my post. I’m not going to go into it in great detail because it is, in fact, all right there, in my post (and in her post), but, in short, she writes that she has always felt more comfortable identifying as a slut, rather than a feminist (because all of those terrible stereotypes about feminists. Of course there are no negative stereotypes about the word ‘slut’ so that makes perfect sense).
In conclusion, Ted, call yourselves feminists all you want. If you attack feminism, misrepresent feminist arguments, reinforce negative and untrue stereotypes about feminism and feminists then, believe me. Feminists are going to respond. If you want to accuse others of ‘not doing their research’, as ‘Samantha’ (have we confirmed this is who wrote the post I respond to? I’m still confused) does in her post, then I would highly suggest that you also do some research. Maybe learn a little about feminism, feminists, feminist theory, etc. Maybe you could talk to some feminists about why, exactly, they may not support a fundraiser for an event that is supposedly about ending violence against women, being held in a strip club. Then you would know. And you wouldn’t have to make up things about how feminists are attacking the individual women who work in the industry (which is simply not the case) or that ‘Feminism has taken a hard hit by the constant exclusivity of “feminists’. Also, you know, I think it must be pointed out that the author of the post says that feminism has been lost. I disagree. It’s right here. It is being attacked at every angle because people buy into all the bullshit and hatred spewed about what radical feminists do and think and say. It is ALL lies. And to hear it repeated by someone who identifies as feminist is even more damaging and upsetting.
May 14, 2011 at 1:21 pm
I think feminists need to have a long and hard discussion on how feminist language is used for unfeminist purposes. Do we own this language that we have created? Are we prepared to defend it from people who will appropriate it for their own ends?
I understand that defining “feminism” and who gets to call themselves “feminist” is a very thorny issue. But that doesn’t stop people from throwing buzzwords like “empowerment” to sell lipstick. On the other hand, if President Bush had called himself a “Socialist”, claiming be fighting against poverty worldwide, people would have, understandably, kicked off.
“Deny her feminism”. That’s funny. The only people denying their feminist are those using the word for entirely unfeminist goals.
May 14, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Hey, Meghan, do you read the blog I Blame the Patriarchy? Because if you don’t already, you totally should.
Ted, it is completely justified to criticize someone who calls herself a feminist if what she is actually saying does not align itself with feminism. If feminism aims to actually help women, then obviously it should take issue with strip clubs, since they position women’s bodies as objects or commodities for sale and to be consumed. Although a small number of women surely make this choice freely, there are countless others who are forced into the sex industry without a choice due to abuse or poverty. These women are being raped and exploited. Just because a few women are in a position to choose sex work freely, doesn’t mean the industry they work for is not a pro-rape industry. Feminism needs to take issue with this, and a women calling herself a feminist and ignoring this reality is indeed “doing it wrong”. Feminism does not mean piously supporting privileged women’s choices while throwing abused women under the bus.
May 14, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Yes! I do read IBTP! I love her. One million times over. I wish all the time that I was as funny as Jill. And thank you for your response to Ted. Agreed, agreed.
May 15, 2011 at 7:50 pm
I think we all wish we were as funny as Jill…
May 15, 2011 at 8:44 pm
True, true. She is many kinds of awesome.
May 17, 2011 at 5:06 am
Yeah, I wish so too. She writes about really dark subjects but somehow incites belly laughs every time. It’s a special talent.
May 14, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Fantastic comment, especially the last part.
May 16, 2011 at 12:55 am
I think ‘third wave’ feminism is more libertarianism than feminism, which is not necesarily a female friendly ideology and is known for being simplistic, non-critical and devoid of any context or analysis of power.
A fundraiser addresing male violence against women should not be held in a strip-club. This is just blatantly obvious. It’s thoughtless and insensitive to women who have no choice to be there. Same goes for the whole ‘slut’ thing. I certainly wouldn’t be able to participate in these events. I think it’s perfectly resonable for a feminist to question these decisions and the simplistic and disengenuous arguments that are being used to defend them.
Thank you Meghan for your clear-minded analysis and to the many other commenters doing the same. I think the ‘Slutwalk’ has good intentions and an important point to make about victim-blaming, but I disagree with the approach that it’s taken. I think it’s only confusing the message and alienationg a lot of women, ironically many of the women who’ve been most harmed by male violence.
May 17, 2011 at 8:54 am
i do not believe that feminism as a movement benefits from this kind of attack. If feminism does not align itself with the reality of women’s lives, and include them as advocates for themselves, it’s like going into a third world country and giving them a bag of food instead of a sack of seeds. Plus this language is trapped in western, patriarchal, oppressive, dualisms. Someone is right, others are wrong. Some get what it’s supposed to be about, others are ignorant. Some feminists’ jobs are “aligned with feminism” other women can’t be feminists because their jobs are “pro-rape.” Any of us here are only throwing a woman under the bus if we criticize the feminist rather than discussing the ideas we’re uncomfortable with.
Come on, take it back! We can still work together, we can talk about the things that we believe, and learn that other people might see it from a different side, but we can fight together on the main point! The main point being: Stop condoning rape by saying some people are bringing it on themselves. To call the sex industry “pro-rape” is just too divisive. It’s the blog post the ignorant, sick, rapist will remember Let’s be more careful with our words.
Some people want to focus on decreasing sexual violence by lessening the need for sex work, by providing more jobs, better support for poor women—pointing out the relationship between objectification of women and sexual violence in our culture. No one is denying the connection between the two, in our culture, throughout history and now.
Some people want to claim the word slut for themselves, proclaim their right to wear a g-string and do whatever they want with a pair of f*%*ing rubber gloves, even get paid for it— deconstructing the taboo dualism of madonna-whore, and say: you have no right to rape me– a point everyone speaking here agrees with.
It’s possible to work together from these different points of focus if we don’t try to make one right and one wrong, but instead try to celebrate that we’re tackling a shared problem from many different angles.
May 14, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Meghan,
You didn’t know who the author was? Seriously? Also, criticizing someone’s writing skills at the beginning of a response is always a turnoff to a reader. It just seems juvenile.
I’ve never been to a strip club in my 55 years but tonight I WILL be at Archibalds to support the SLUTWALK DC.
All feminists are not going to agree with everything all other feminists say or do. That’s just life. We all pick our battles and fight them the best we can.
May 14, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Are YOU serious?? How on earth would I know who the author is? Am I missing something here? Her name wasn’t on the post. I’m not psychic. Criticizing someone’s writing skills is a perfectly fair criticism when it dilutes their argument. And YES, ‘all feminists are not going to agree with everything all other feminists say or do’, but if someone spreads dangerous lies about feminism, attacks other feminists based on said lies, and misrepresents feminist arguments, I am going to respond, and I am going to correct them. Enjoy your night out. You must be much more empowered and liberated than I.
May 14, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Her name is on her post.
http://slutwalkdc.org/node/15
> Submitted by SamanthaWright on Fri, 05/13/2011 – 15:15
May 14, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Ah ha! Thank you. I think the problem was that the post I linked to, here: http://slutwalkdc.tumblr.com/post/5453652440/statement-in-regards-to-our-upcoming-fundraiser-at-a (i.e. the post that was sent to me), did not have her name on it. Thanks for the clarification!
May 15, 2011 at 2:26 pm
I would think that after reading the note you would have looked at its site of origin. Since samantha is the organizer of the site, she is the only one who can post notes from the site, i believe.
May 15, 2011 at 8:43 pm
This was the site of origin. http://slutwalkdc.tumblr.com/post/5453652440/statement-in-regards-to-our-upcoming-fundraiser-at-a
Anyway, this argument isn’t really important. I had no idea who wrote the note, her name wasn’t there, now we know. SUPER. Moving right along…
May 14, 2011 at 7:05 pm
You’ve never been to a strip club? Kate, I get that you disagree with Meghan’s criticisms, but I would strongly advise to reconsider going. I’m not sure if you’ll have issue with any of the women there, but the men there are not exactly…. feminist-friendly. Actually, you should go. This may be an eye opener.
May 16, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Actually it WAS quite an eye opener. Honestly, I expected to find a sleazy den of groping men and drugged up dancers.
What I found instead was a nightclub that had almost as many woman customers as men … lots of couples too.
The women who work there were also a surprise. They were interested in learning more about SLUTWALKDC and took a lot of time out of working to speak with us.
I’ll write more thoughts later.
May 15, 2011 at 5:38 am
Across the western world, when Greens and other left-leaning groups start to gain some attention on an issue, or some electoral success, the Marxist Left immediately splits. There are those who rail against the new energy/movement as being not sufficiently ideological, and too compromised. And then there are those who see the new energy/movement as an opportunity to jump on the bandwagon, be supportive, and then use the energy to recruit, radicalise and campaign.
Its not clear to me which of these options is better for the energetic campaign. I suspect that if radicals keep criticising from the sidelines, and stay away from the new movement, this will help the campaign to reach out to ordinary people, without the risk that the extremists will tar their image. Ultimately, all politics is about connecting with ordinary people. But extremists act as though it is about winning arguments through anger, lecturing and forcing counter-intuitive ideology down people’s throats.
Of course, there are those who aren’t concerned at all about engaging with the public. They are more concerned with their own identity within the small group of idealogues, and their satisfaction in being able to articulate the ideology – Marxist, feminist, whatever. This can be an admirable trait, as long as it doesn’t become malicious or destructive.
May 15, 2011 at 8:46 am
Yeah, let’s all believe the hype. Because, hey, everyone else is doing it! It is really ‘the extremists’ who are tarring feminism’s ‘image’? Really? Did you see the image at the bottom of this post? This isn’t about ‘winning arguments’, friend, it is about rejecting the dominant discourse and challenging systematic oppression. This may well leave us at the sidelines and make us unpopular but everyone joining the mainstream isn’t going to get us very far either, is it. Also, not that this is relevant at all, but since you brought it up – the Greens in BC hardly have a very progressive history. The reasons the left in Canada are not successful are because too many people buy into dominant discourse/ideology and are afraid of what will happen if they don’t. The Right, and those in power, tell the people that the world/economy will fall to pieces if we share with the marginalized. And people believe them. Patriarchy also tells us that inequity is natural and we could not possibly function without it. This isn’t about splitting feminism, it’s about ensuring that feminism remains a challenge to dominant ideology and isn’t simply sucked into the vacuum.
May 15, 2011 at 10:34 am
Wow, a fundraiser in a strip club, what’s next ’50$ blowjobs in the carpark fundraisers’?! Hey, seems like the next logical next step, right?!
And what’s with the statement “Maybe some of you have not done your research, but one of the organizers of SlutWalk Toronto is an exotic model and burlesque dancer herself.” Does that give this “movement” any form of credibility? Does she speak for all the women who are being abused and trafficked in the porn/sex industry then?
Speaking of research, have there been any empirical studies that to come to the following conclusion “Many women feel more comfortable at a gentleman’s club than they would at a cocktail party.”? Ah, now i know what im doing wrong/why i don’t like most parties, i should have gone to a strip club instead that would have been heaps of fun! How didn’t i think of that before??
May 15, 2011 at 10:40 am
Another thing, what about survivors of sexual assault being triggered by words, ..like slut. Or being triggered by things like ‘you have to be “sex-positive”, prostitution and stripping is great and choice’ and stuff like that. Are there any safe places for survivors in this “movement”, is there any consideration for women that might just find the sound of this very difficult to stomach?
May 15, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Wow! So many words and so little getting accomplished!
Do I think Slutwalk DC’s choice of venue for a fundraiser was a wise one? No, I think it was a mistake. Do I applaud the organizers of Slutwalk DC for being willing to invest a lot of time and effort in raising support for the idea that no rape victim should ever be blamed for the crime committed against her? Absolutely. Will I be marching in Slutwalk DC? I wouldn’t miss it.
Would I like to see more young, energetic organizers being encouraged in their efforts? Would I like all of us to allow for the possibility that people may need to make mistakes in order to learn from them? Would I like to live in a world where people consider that sometimes it is wiser to be kind than to be “right”? You bet your sweet feminist ass, I do.
May 15, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Indeed. And wouldn’t it have been great if the author (Samantha, apparently) had, instead of attacking and blaming and shaming individual women for been too damn uptight to let loose and love their oppression by working to end violence against women in a strip club (?!?!?), she had owned up to her huge mistake, apologized, and acknowledged that this was inappropriate and that there are reasons why this was inappropriate? Instead of insulting about a century of feminists, feminist theory, feminist work, and, um, WOMEN?! No no. Let’s keep blaming the feminists. SHUT UP GUYS. PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO LIE ABOUT YOU AND INSULT YOU OK! Apparently silence = liberation now.
May 16, 2011 at 12:24 pm
If you would be so kind as to not mischaracterize my comments, I would appreciate it greatly.
May 16, 2011 at 4:17 pm
I believe that you imply that we would all prefer to be ‘right’ rather than ‘kind’, no? And that we should, in fact, try harder to be ‘kind’ as opposed to ‘right’?
May 16, 2011 at 5:16 pm
I did not suggest that anyone in this discussion should “shut up” or be silent. Your reply to my comment seems to suggest that I equate being kind with not speaking one’s mind. That is not what I said and it is not what I meant. I said “sometimes” it is wiser to be kind than to be “right.” I would like to see Slutfest DC pursue its future course in a way that allows for the broadest possible support. Perhaps other veteran activists can offer suggestions for the DC organizers to consider along those lines? The fundraiser is water under the bridge now. People have shared their opinions about it. Let it go. Let’s move forward. That’s what I mean by being kind in this particular instance.
May 16, 2011 at 6:44 am
If ‘kind’ means without criticism, even though there are clearly problematic elements about it? Then no, I see no wisdom in that. None at all, I’m afraid. I mean, like that picture… what does that even mean? I’ll do housework for you in a bikini if you support this? Is it meant to ‘catch the eye’ because sex sells (the sexual exploitation of women sells so it’s okay)? It feels like base pandering, do you really think that will get something significant accomplished?
May 16, 2011 at 11:41 am
Actually, “kind” means “having or showing a friendly, generous, and considerate nature.” I doubt that this meaning is unknown to you, and that your suggestion that the word “kind” may have morphed into meaning “without criticism” is a rhetorical device. It IS possible to offer constructive criticism and be kind at the same time. I have found it a habit well worth developing.
May 16, 2011 at 4:18 pm
‘Kind’ is something that women are always told they should be. It means docile. It means silent. It means pleasant. I means ‘don’t rock the boat’.
May 16, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Kind has been, and certainly continues to be a word that has oppressive connotations and uses, but I don’t believe it’s inherently problematic. I strive for kindness, in the sense that it means being gentle, forgiving, affectionate and benevolent. I’m also very out of rage, but that doesn’t mean I support kindness over, or to the exclusion, of rage, certainly not for anyone except perhaps myself. Calling someone unkind is certainly a tool for silencing and putting in their place someone you disagree with in a really juvenile way, and it’s certainly got connotations of docility that aren’t the route to anything except complacency, so it’s perhaps a really good example of how the struggle might take a different form for cis males (cismales?), or at least me. It seems like rage is an easy path to go down for me, sometimes, and that often it doesn’t do much, for me, other than burn energy and reinforce potentially negative thought patterns and behaviours. I think it would be great if the world could be loved into equality and peace and out of patriarchy and oppression and hierarchical violence, but it doesn’t seem like that’s the case. I just really hope that doesn’t exclude kindness as a tactic.
May 16, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Thanks so much for not actually addressing the other part of my comment, that’s sarcasm by the way, but It’s interesting that you know the meaning of kind and yet don’t seem to realize that Samantha’s words resembled nothing like it. How can you expect something to be reciprocated when you never gave it in the first place? It certainly is possible to give constructive criticism, but I never said otherwise. But constructive does not mean sugarcoating, and it does not mean staying silent when there are clearly issues (like that picture) going on.
May 15, 2011 at 11:42 pm
Thanks for this post Meghan. I couldn’t agree more with basically every sentiment you’ve expressed here, and I’m glad to see a link to rmott’s article as well since she has so much to say about it too. Its frustrating to see how some women have so internalized the rape culture coming out with this kind of what I see as extremely misguided and actually harmful stuff–harmful to the most vulnerable people, as rmott among others points out. This whole thing has me very depressed and frustrated, you are certainly not alone on this, as I am sure you already know. I just wanted to chirp my words of support as well. Your article came up in a debate/discussion amongst some feminists on facebook and I was very glad to find your blog.
May 16, 2011 at 3:35 am
There are ways to read the original article, statement by slutwalk, and all of the comments with an eye for commonality, inclusion, diversity, human experience as we all deal with society–all of these are tools to help women and others undo sexism, sexual violence, objectification of women and other ills of capitalist, patriarchal “post”colonial society,…
or one can read it all, trying to figure out how to be “right” to someone else’s “wrong” basically the root of Western, patriarchal, postcolonial dualistic thinking and all wars…
Slutwalks’ statement is condescending at points (not really inclusive), but they’re starting out on the defensive… then Meghan gets defensive back, but it seems like the points they are making or actually, that i would like to make are these:
some women do sex work, and sometimes when they are raped, attacked, tortured… they are blamed for it, because “people” say they have chosen to be “sluts.” some women–maybe most, not sure of the stats–who do sex work, need to do it to make money as cogs (although competitively in good old {sarcastic} capitalist style) in the FU society.
But to move on to include some statements stripper and other friends on facebook in response to this blog, (none are actually self proclaimed sluts at this point– then it would be like the racism, “n-word” debate, which is actually further along, historically and other ways than the sexist-feminist-we can call ourselves sluts if we want to debate) wait, that’s actually part of what’s hapening here! Some strip also as art– let’s not forget to imagine the possible ways we might have decorated and moved and touched our bodies—inside and out— wherever and with whomever we choose, if society hadn’t fucked women, turning men into fuckers instead of celebrating the human glory of fucking (i didn’t say glory fuck, but this is where i love my alias existence)
Despite my maturing feminism, and deliberate rebellion against my obvious prudish tendencies (it’s about thinking i’m supposed to make everyone comfortable)I’m inspired by all this to just say:
Wouldn’t “trickle down theory” be a great title for an astute, challenging, sluts unite Hump Fest porn entry this year?
xo trudy
I’ll take a break after
May 16, 2011 at 3:36 pm
This comment didn’t make much sense. Especially the fifth paragraph…
“Wouldn’t “trickle down theory” be a great title for an astute, challenging, sluts unite Hump Fest porn entry this year?”
What does this even mean??
May 16, 2011 at 4:40 pm
I’m afraid I’m not quite sure what you are getting at, either, alias. Regarding my ‘defensiveness’, as I point out, these kinds of characterizations and misrepresentations of feminism/feminists are constant and are damaging and they are lies. The author of the response I address does not address any of the very real concerns of critics and, instead, reinforces untrue (and terribly condescending) stereotypes about feminism. I am defensive because I am defending. And these concerns deserve to be acknowledged, respected, and addressed. Women who work in the sex industry most certainly are victims of assault, are called sluts, and are blamed for this, for ‘putting themselves at risk’, because of the ‘choice’ they make. This is, indeed, bullshit. But that was never up for discussion. That was all agreed upon. What critics took issue with was a) the decision to hold a fundraiser in support of an event against rape culture in a strip club (which is a space and culture that is very much enmeshed in rape culture) AND b) the implication that women who do not want to participate in said event are simply ‘uncomfortable’ (i.e. prudish, not empowered, not liberated, etc.). This kind of language has also been used by Slutwalk TO organizers who imply that those who do not want to call themselves ‘slut’ / take on this ‘new meaning’ of ‘slut’, are simply ‘traditional’ or ashamed about sex?! If I am defensive it is because I have something to defend.
May 16, 2011 at 9:07 am
So much rage, but understandable, I guess. I suppose that the division is between those who would answer the question “Is sex work (porn/stripping/et al.) inherently objectifying and violent?” with a resounding “Yes” or “No”. It’s a really complicated issue in some ways, but in other ways it seems very simple. Do I support the objectification and commodification of women? Of course not (though how good I might be at that deserves deeper, personal examination). Is sex work often a job taken because of coercion or other similar factors? Certainly, even something as ‘simple’ as not being able to financially support yourself makes money into violent coercion (after all, the option is often work or a slow death, and in that way, a paycheck is a temporary extension on a death sentence). Are there women who honestly and freely choose to be sex workers? Maybe, it seems like this could be the case, though lots of people do things they hate because the money is good enough. Most importantly, is this sort of objectification harmful to women? Of course, it feeds the worst parts of male entitlement and patriarchy at the very least. So, from that perspective, maybe a strip club perhaps isn’t the ideal place for a feminist fund-raiser, but if the women who worked there (or perhaps owned it?) were the ones who wanted the fund-raiser to happen there, would it still be problematic? Is it ‘selling your soul to the devil’? I’m not sure, I’m a cis gendered (cisgendered?) male, who really hasn’t had to face any of the constant violence and exploitation many (most, and often all) women face on a daily basis. Certainly I face other sorts of exploitation and violence, but my walks home and random conversations with strangers are fairly fearless, my life is fairly fearless, and I’m confident that this means that I exist in a totally different universe than that of so many of my wonderful female friends who’ve tried to share with me how terrible their universe can be. So, I suppose the best place to aim is the root causes. I honestly believe that sex, sexuality, sexual expression and sexual imagery can be positive things, but are very much not that when they involve any sort of violence or coercion, especially institutionalised violence and coercion. But I would think that perhaps groups like “Fuck for Forest” are presenting sexuality in a positive light, and there might be something to be said if all the power is in the hands of the sex worker (if that’s even possible). Maybe these questions are beyond me, but I think the fact that this posting, and others like it, have me asking these questions is really, really important. Questioning and deconstructing Patriarchy is so very important. Being an ally is very important. Not being a part of the problem and instead, working actively to help shape a world without violence and fear is most important of all. Let’s all do that, I’m going to keep trying. You’re all wonderful people, I’m sorry that the world can even give rise to this sort of tension.
May 16, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Censored but my voice is heard! ;D
May 16, 2011 at 9:08 pm
You actually were not censored, Shawn. But my deepest apologies for stepping away from the computer for a brief moment. PLEASE forgive me. How dare I spend a single minute doing something other than approving your veryimportantvitalcantlivewithoutreading remarks about how “these conversations are quite rediculous!” GUYS Shawn thinks “Your making assumptions based off your own thoughts.”! MORE HIGHLIGHTS FROM GENIUS SHAWN: “Quit trying to pick fights because you want to target people who trying to make change…Open your eye’s people!” In conclusion, as per Shawn’s recommendation, I am going to work really hard at not being “an idiot on a freakin power trip!”. Also. We “should all shut up.” THANK YOU FOR ENLIGHTENING US SHAWN. In light of your douchebaggery and your unwillingness to read the comments policy or imagine that it might be possible that my life does not actually revolve around you, I have decided to trash your ridiculous and thoughtless comment. Which I would have published otherwise, just so that the rest of the folks on here who actually think through their comments before posting and are capable both spelling and of having intelligent conversations, could publicly ridicule you.
On re-reading your comment, it actually makes perfect sense that you would assume it was not published intentionally. I bet that happens to you a lot.
Thanks for showing up, eh.
May 16, 2011 at 8:44 pm
Men are not the enemy. Even men who go to strip clubs are not the enemy. Strip clubs themselves are the enemy. The objectification of women is the enemy. Greed and ignorance are the enemy. Men who buy into this system are deluded and harm themselves with their ignorance. Women who work for these clubs are also deluded and harm themselves with their ignorance. Everyone is harmed by these places. Everyone is harmed by sexual greed. Everyone is harmed by ignorance.
If holding an event at a place like this improves the overall situation in the world, to that extent it is beneficial. If it increases objectification of women, greed or ignorance then it is harmful. In my opinion, holding this event at a strip club has the potential to reach precisely those men who are most in need of decreasing their objectification of women. Slutwalk, as I understand it, is a movement which has as its core message that the way a woman dresses should not be an excuse for rape. It is a pretty focused message. To reach those men who attend strip clubs, if you really can get through to them, may be far more effective than sitting at home and blogging about the horrors of strip clubs. The people who read this blog are the choir, while those at strip clubs are the ones truly in need of preaching. To denounce those who approach this issue in their own way, which may be different from yours, may actually do more harm than good.
May 16, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Who do you think created strip clubs? Men. Who do you think strip clubs cater to? Men. Nowhere did Meghan say men are the enemy, but to pretend men do not hold culpability for creating and upholding the system is ludicrous. Patriarchy is not a sentient being. Men who buy into this system not only harm themselves, but harm others whereas the women, who may or may not be deluded, are not harming other people. Many women who work in strip clubs are just trying to make a living, and do not do it for ~super fun empowerment~. They’re not deluded, they just do what they have to do to get by in this world.
Also, there is absolutely no reason to assume that you will “get through” to these guys. If that does not happen, “blogging about the horrors of strip clubs”, as you so call, it is not less effective. If a “feminist man” like you can conclude that this post does more harm than good because of close-mindedness, there is really not much hope that strip club patrons are going to understand how wrong victim blaming and slut shaming are.
May 16, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Right, yeah, I’m sure that picture will /totally/ make people stop casually objectifying women too or valuing them only for their sexual parts/appearance. Pandering to male gaze, indulging it, will help things too, somehow, right? Stereotyping feminists and shaming and denouncing women who don’t want to take part as uptight prudes instead of acknowledging that, hey, they /may/ just have legitimate reasons and critiques just like you… will also, somehow, help. No one ever said Slutwalk as a whole is bad, it’s dishonest to pretend as if Meghan was saying that. There are certain methods that they send their message out that are problematic, that is a large part of the issue.
Clearly, the people who read this blog are not just the choir either.. or else there wouldn’t be so many disagreements. Also ‘strip clubs are the enemy’? Let’s try not taking all responsibility from men shall we? They are not some non-entity in perpetuating these things. No one said they were ‘the enemy’, but they’re certainly not blameless either. Reducing this to being all about strip clubs or men in strip clubs is asinine of you, really. And again I bring up the tarring of feminism, which that Slutwalk statement indulged in and so has already done harm. Acknowledge that before you start lecturing people.
May 16, 2011 at 10:10 pm
The problem with DC SW holding the fundraiser at this particular club is very simple. If the women who work as dancers / bartenders / waitresses / strippers / lapdancers / cleaners / whatever at that club OWN that club as a cooperative and all take a slice of the profit from renting out the room for the fundraiser, then there is no problem with it.
However, if the club is owned by men, and the *men* are the ones you pay to rent the room in order to hold the fund-raiser, and the men are the only people to profit from it – which I suspect is very much the case – then what DC SW has just done is undermine every woman who works at that club.
May 17, 2011 at 8:13 am
hi again, i have a tendency to be overly wordy, and combine too many points at once when i am enlivened by a conversation. another feminist discussion i am participating in is extolling the “virtue of dirty” this was where i was trying to reach, to add, not prove a point.
Trickle down theory is one of the bullshit lies behind capitalism, right?: Reagan style- if people at the “top” have money, the whole economy is improved, the “wealth” trickles down so that the middle class, and even people at the, the poor strippers for example, are better off. That’s such bullshit propaganda designed to appease the masses that it’s laughable to me (I’m not trying to be divisive really, obviously i want in some ways to unite with republican feminists as well, even if some of them primarily are working for self advancement, the advancement of their daughters and the other daughters of the people at their country club, but I digress).
Anyway, I think “the trickle down theory” could produce some great, dirty, feminist porn, if you think metaphorically, fluidly, and don’t mind making a few people uncomfortable.
My main point was to stop trying to figure out who’s right. We’re all familiar with perspectivism right? People don’t have the same realities. One’s beliefs, perspectives, priorities and needs are based on their experience. This doesn’t mean we should stop having heated discussions about patriarchal, capitalism and the way that the objectification of women in our culture has led to sexual violence against women. It means that strippers work in strip clubs. Being uncomfortable with these places and the “victims” who work there continues to help to maintain the taboo status, contributing, rather than exposing the humanity that happens there- on a daily basis. People go to work at these places every day.
To have a fundraiser that says, think what you will about strip clubs, strippers and patrons, just agree with us here on our signs and flyers and internet advertising, that no one can do anything–Anything– to deserve to get raped.
I’m NOT suggesting that anyone here ever thought or tried to say anything like that. But we all know that there are still people who do. That’s just the clearest, baseline message i get from the Slut Walks event. Some of this discussion is blurring that point. The one we all agree on. Any time we say that there is an UNACCEPTABLE way to advocate or to fight against injustice, we risk minimizing the collective impact of the good work.
Like I said, it’s not that I think that people shouldn’t participate in the subtler issues involved in perpetuating or deconstructing oppression. But if feminists reject someone’s contribution as unacceptable (having the fundraiser at your workplace or yours or hers) then feminism becomes exclusive and divisive. If you raise the point of irony, in order to turn their advocacy into an opportunity to question where we are comfortable and can still push forward the main point— again—sex workers, even if they choose to say “fuck you, I’ll call myself a nasty slut if I feel like it,” will never deserve to be raped.
I’m pretty sure from reading the Slut Walks pages that many sex workers wanted the fight for their rights to be safe from sexual violence to take place in a strip club: the place they spend 40 hours a week of their lives, about 260 days a year on average? Thanks again for all of the great discussion here.
May 18, 2011 at 4:16 pm
So, I’ll state right off the bat – that as a woman approaching 50… and who has watched the backlash unfold against feminists… and having worked as a social worker with women who have been abused, raped, ended up on the streets, ended up a prostitutes etc.. and having developed close relationships with activists who work with women in the sex trade.. I am really really concerned about the Slutwalk (I for one will never ‘reclaim’ a word that was never ‘good’ in the first place.. that is quite frankly bizarre).. and I am appreciative that other women are questioning the underlying messages that are stemming from this walk. And… appreciate that the organizers may have been naively starting from good intentions. It is always difficult to see that other women may have bought into the ‘feminist’ backlash without even realizing it…and even call themselves feminists… the divide and conquer mechanics are difficult to navigate.
But there is a very huge political hot potato that comes from the slippery slope of bringing the sex trade (including exotic dancing) and sexualized words such as slut into the ‘normalized’ world. There is a campaign to legalize prostitution with the assumption being that victimized sex trade workers should not be penalized. On first pass…most people would applaud that initiative… but wait a minute…. for many reasons, this is a scary progression and most sex trade workers who understand the complexities of power (some are not at that point yet)… realise that legalizing prostitution is not as simple as all that… THIS means that Judges, Business Men, Politicians, Husbands and so on… can get away with their exploitations with impunity and no longer have the fear of the law to hold them in check. This means that people working with sex trade workers can no longer use the law to actually intervene for some people – perhaps a paternalistic view, but a safety net nevertheless that some of us count on.
I am reclaiming the positive word ‘feminist’ … no child of mine will ever hold up a poster that says ‘my mommy is a slut’
August 21, 2011 at 7:39 am
As a confident teenage feminist in America, in no way do I see how “reclaiming” the word slut is empowering to women or how hosting a fundraiser at a strip club helps the exotic dancers. Women should be empowered in sexuality, but why must we support places where men pay women to dance as if they are objects in order to empower sexuality? Calling myself a slut doesn’t stop some idiot from doing it as well. Is it supposed to magically stop being a negatively seen word because someone accepts that they are a slut? I am in no way a slut for enjoying my sexuality or encouraging my peers to think about their sexuality in a positive way. Encouraging a woman to be the poster girl for a wet dream doesn’t strike me as embracing sexuality, it seems to be another way of making a woman feel as if she has to dress provocatively to feel confident, admired, loved, empowered, or desired. Others may feel as if my feelings or conclusions are incorrect because I am a teenager, but how must other teenagers feel when they see these women hosting a fundraiser at a strip joint to empower females? This may not be the intention, but the next group of feminists and sexually empowered adults are teens right now. Teenagers are told by conventional feminism that we are equal, and therefore entitled to sexuality like men, see events hosted at places where men are paying women to dance in lingerie confusing. Why? Because it doesn’t make sense. How is that equal? Or empowering? My mind cannot grapple with this idea making sense to one person, let alone a whole group of educated women.
Being sexy for yourself is not even remotely the same as getting paid to dance risque. I don’t understand why people posting these comments are so caught up with defending the term Slut as a positive word, the politics of it all, and the fear of hurting each other’s feelings.
I’m a “radical feminist.” Whether I shave my legs or not isn’t the issue. (Why are smooth legs vs. hairy legs still an issue?) The issue is that women are being raped, abused, victimized, and still are blamed because of the idiotic ideal that men cannot keep it in their pants , and therefore women need to dress like nuns to deter “overzealous” men. Embracing the word SLUT will not change that. In fact, if feminists are objecting to the message, why would someone who disagrees with women’s equality be open to the idea? Slut is a negative word used against women, and therefore turns people off.
Like Beliss said, we need to reclaim ‘feminist’ as a positive word, because I (and many others) refuse to hold up a sign that says ‘I’m a slut.’ Not because we’re prudes, but because, frankly, I’m not a slut, and neither are other women, even if they claim otherwise.
As a heated debate is indeed, heated, I apologize if my sentences didn’t run as cohesively as they could with detailed editorial work.